Voices from Hamas

Voices from Hamas

Unedited Interview by Sherifa Zuhur (Director Institute of Middle Eastern, Islamic and Diasporic Studies and Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College) with Professor Naser al-Din Shaer, Deputy Prime Minister, and Shaykh Hatem Qafishah, Member of the Palestinian Legislative Council. Also present, Masaad Abu Toameh (facilitator/journalist). This interview excludes the last 10 minutes.

August 27, 2007 Part I.

Qafishah: In this country, Hamas is advancing. It is raising its voices, and spreading its influence as a movement of liberation and through the election of a democratic government. There is no one here who disputes this is a democratic process, that this was a government elected by free choice.

Even in Washington, Americans can see that people raised their voices expressed their preferences for Hamas.

Shaer: So how can they support a boycott?

Qafishah: How can we let them silence the raising of our voices?

Zuhur: Because they are able to, primarily because of their location in Washington.

Shaer: How can we not raise our voices?

Zuhur: How will you do so effectively when the US government will not talk to you?

Shaer: They must talk to us. This situation is really their fault.

Zuhur: This difficulty does not only extend to Hamas. This is similar to the case in Iraq with Iran; under AMB Khalilzad's tenure, officials had to talk to the Iranians unofficially, because they had crucial issues to discuss; they had 1000s of Iranian pilgrims entering Iraq, arms issues and they must deal with their neighbor.

Shaer: I like that. If they do not want to speak to Hamas directly, Americans know that there are numerous other individuals, there might be 10 or up to 100 people. who might be very close [to Hamas] and they can talk to them. Now, they can speak to legitimate members of the Palestinian Legal Council, like Mr. Qafishah here, who insists that he is not a legal member of Hamas, he is a Council member, and they can speak to him under this title. They can talk to me in my capacity as a professor in the university, as I have been deputy prime minister, or minister of education, or etc. etc. They do not have to go to Haniya himself. They can find any way to talk to the Islamic believers here.

Zuhur: I don't want to focus only on the American lack of communication - I'm sorry to say that the enemies of your group have made your position very difficult,

Shaer: So what would you advise?

Zuhur: There are at least two directions to take. One way is to accept their terms and mentality and address it directly. Yes, you have explained that you are acting democratically and you have explained in Arabic. But we are still reading in the Washington Post - the question of whether or not Islam is compatible with democracy.

Shaer: You are right, you are right.

Zuhur: You can address this in a very simple way --this issue of Islam's compatibility to democracy directly to them in their language

And the second accusation they make of you relates to terror; since the Israeli demand is security first, and then peace. So

Shaer: Can you accept this? How?

Zuhur: No, no, I simply suggest you engage their perspective directly. The Israelis ask how can we speak to Hamas when their Qassam rockets are falling directly on a school in Sderot? So answer them directly.

Shaer: Then we are speaking only on their terms.

Zuhur: No. Otherwise, you are only speaking to an audience that shares your concerns, but not to all of those you need to convince. You need reach an audience you haven't been reaching and speak directly to their concerns.

Secondly, you should focus on the humanitarian issues, and those problems which will emerge in the future if this conflict worsens, or as they say " if terrorism increases". More failure, more terrorism. You after all, offer a positive established order; something which is in place, an organization with discipline.

Shaer: All of us, we are talking about this. But now, which government is democratic (ours or the others?)

(They debate my statements)

Zuhur: I didn't come as an advisor - I came to find out what you think. When people ask me why should Ikhwan be allowed to participate in politics in Egypt? I tell people that since 2004, new extremist groups have emerged like Ta'ifa al-Mansura, or the group that the police have titled Tawhid wa-l-Jihad, so would you prefer the MB or these more extreme salafist groups? The Israelis describe you as terrorists. It's almost as if you have to explain to them what real chaos could emerge. And it could be much worse.

Shaer: Yes, this could be much worse.

Perhaps this talk about the Muslim Brotherhood, well, why not if you want to turn to this. What does this organization, HAMAS, want? It's not takfir, And it is not tawhid and jihad and all of this. And it is democratic practices. And this talk is true. We absolutely utilize concensus and democratic practices.

Now, no- not now, well before this, a few months ago, it was clear that we could (needed to) talk about any chance of peace, and any chance of talking to America, and any chance to persuade Hamas to accept this ideas and to support and give full authority to support Abu Mazen going to talk to the Israelis. But now, after going underground, and the boycott and [their] making our people suffer in the West Bank as in Gaza, do you think it will be easy?

Zuhur: No, it won't.

Shaer: Do you think it will be easy for Hamas' personnel to give this chance to Abu Mazen again We need another month or two, or a month to convince again, if we can even do so.

Qafishah: We are not decided. Either new voices, or someone who gives advice to the policy maker, they might be pro-Israelis. The people who want us to fail are the Israelis.

Zuhur: They are listening now, even now. It was rumored that the US government was collecting opinions about whether or not they should cut the military aid to Egypt.

Shaer: Why?

Zuhur: Among other objectives, they want proof that the Egyptian military transformation is taking place; this has been an initiative a particular U.S. congressman. Also there are those who want to force Egypt to push out or rein in Hamas and support Fatah, and a third aim is to reinstate the judiciary oversight over the Egyptian elections,

Shaer: What?

Zuhur: To restore the judiciary oversight that have been now removed on the basis of Mubarak's reforms to the constitution. The Americans desire a certain degree political reform but not enough to support the Ikwhan.

Shaer: So, America would like to support the Ikhwan? (Laughs)

Zuhur: So, when the President heard the head of the Washington Institute, Robert Satloff, who you hear on al-Hurra, recommending cutting the aid, President Bush turned to someone and asked if Satloff is Jewish. Right or wrong, this demonstrates a sense that the US. government knows it needs to identify and to hear different voices in the debate.

But the main card is that they need to understand that things are going to get worse, and somehow they do not. They are behind walls, and they leave and yet there is peril, this is the next stage.

Shaer: No, look the Israelis, well if there is any attack them, they are speaking of terrorism and terrorism and more terrorism. If Hamas and Islamic Jihad and . and all of these other armed groups stop attacking Israel, then Israel well say, "Look, they've lost their power and they can do nothing against us, so we are not going to give them anything."

So by which means Israel would like to give our land back to us? If we are in full power and we can attack the Israelis, then they are talking about that we are terrorists and the whole world must side with them against us. And if we talk about peace, they said, "look they aren't able to do anything, so look let us give them nothing." So which language do they understand?

Zuhur: It will depend. I really sensed during the last intifadha, the second intifadha at a certain point, the Israelis were desperate, and they attempted a large scale military action - moving through Jenin and the West Bank.

And for the issue of suicide bombings, it doesn't help the resolution of this issue.

Shaer: And yes, these operations are a response to their actions.

These operations don't let them [Israelis] live in complacence. So our fighters and youth felt they had to do it.

Zuhur: No, but then, I sensed the Israelis, some of them anyway, were desperate for some end to the violence; that is, they had more will for peace than they do now. But now, many people, in the government, experts and professionals are traveling in their own private vehicles; unlike poorer Israelis riding the buses -- they are not uncomfortable, not as worried as they were before.

Perhaps the Americans will have to rein in their plans to try to containterrorism everywhere. I think they may retreat and find a way to admit that they can't handle the grave difficulties in Iraq, and pull back from a global approach. There are aspects we don't even hear about (in the media in the United States) for example the fighting ongoing in Yemen. It is absent from the American newspapers. The Yemeni government does not admit the extent of the fighting. But it is going on.

Shaer and Qafishah:: True.

Zuhur: And within the United States itself, it is very uncomfortable now to Participate in a mosque or a community center with the same degree of normalcy as before. There is a lot of fear about what might happen there. I think though that if the US focus shifts back to the homeland, that also might be negative for the Palestinian state.

To make people interested in peace as a tactic instead of war, they have to believe they will gain, they will profit.

Shaer: How can Americans make us believe that we will gain?

Zuhur: Well, there is the issue of trust for you. The Israelis require trust and security. Whatever violence occurs, it is said that Israelis cannot trust them (Palestinians) or they cannot have security, so they cannot trust them.

Shaer: Both! Both! We are not against trust or against security. We know the Israelis would like to have security. They would like to live with this and they do not want to live in an insecure that. We know all of this. But, but at the same time we know that they cannot live with liquidation, and if Israelis believe that they can [achieve] and live with our liquidation, they are wrong! The world community will not accept it. The whole issue would come to an end. The situation is based on their understanding up until now. But for the Americans.

Zuhur: Some of them understand. . Look many Americans have now served tours in Iraq, three or four. They are not permitted to use the terms "resistance" or "occupation" nor would many, but this is what their Iraqi counterparts say, so they understand what it means.

Shaer: Look, look, look, look! If you are going to Iraq, yes, the Americans can say that if it is just to help the Iraqis and they will not stay there forever. But we are talking about a really long time [here in Palestine]; we are talking about a real occupation! No one can say that the Israelis are here in the West Bank to help us! No one believes that in the world.

Zuhur: You know, the third way of extending your message is through the media; when people understand how [Palestinian] people are really living, or how they feel in their own voices, it achieves something.

Qafishah: Our conversation is getting anywhere whether about democracy or security, just into confusion. And we do say on the media what Dr. Nasir just said, and to the academic spokespersons. You know that we do speak to Palestinian journalists, Islamists and nationalists And there are others who believe that: but the main issue is: Where or what is the impetus to liberate us from that which is oppressing us? And we discuss this with others and in other forums. We talk about it in the schools. And the newspaper and the media. But where does this get us? For example, on Fridays, I give the sermon in the largest mosque in Nablus, and last Saturday, there was a celebration and I spoke about this issue and the talk is all about people's rights and the occupation. we denounce any violation of civil rights in the West Bank or in Gaza . And at the same time this might be expressed in a magazine as was about the occupation, it wasn't a religious gathering. It wasn't about the Qur'an that we were speaking on Saturday, with us in the gathering, It's not just me, Qafisheh (as a personality), or Nasir al-Sha'ir or Mr. So and so, really Hamas is a very large movement and cluster of issues.

Needless to say, and I have to say this, these are the beliefs of my people, my followers and the base from which we come.

And when we are speaking and we have to speak about what is right and what is wrong, and if we speak about the American President, George Bush, or about Pol Pot, or not only about what the Muslims think about in Islam or as doctrine or political values.�. Our emotions are about Palestine, and our discourse comes from our moral values�. (more, unclear on tape)

No! We speak, And I do not say this, not just because you are present here, sister Sherifa

No, no I am not saying this just in order to say this to George Bush, no we would say the same in the center of the mosque. And not only Baghdad is cut off and occupied. With all bravery or all courage, we are occupied and cut off. As if as you said in the American embassy in Baghdad of its communications even when [officially] cut off. And in all the nations they feel when occupied, they are cut off

With Americans because you (I don't mean you personally) don't understand.

And I, as a shaykh, I want to speak to all Americans and because in the Washington Post or other media we are misrepresented and portrayed wrongly. How are they able to do this?

Zuhur: They misrepresent you, because they are able to, because there is a long history of doing so.

This year, I found in my travels that people are following Hamas from Morocco to Iraq to Saudi Arabia. Yet, there is a problem in America and it is not just George Bush. Let us say that if American policy has 3 points, the first and paramount one is support of Israel and this is really not comprehensible.

Shaer: Yes, Israel.

Zuhur: This why your position, as Hamas is clear to you, but yet it is just not clear enough to the American people.

Shaer: The Palestinians are very weak in general in the media

Zuhur: I'm not saying that, but the problem is that there has been so much more coverage on terrorism on AQ and on the Taliban, and then this is linked to Hamas.

Shaer: Really I must tell you something, I've said it several times, I would like to say it again here -- - Hamas is really not just some religious group, it is a political group and a liberation movement

It is not a religious group in the way the West claims, it's a political group, and that differentiates it from others. Hamas insists on liberating and putting an end to occupation. That's it. That's it. And it believes in sharing and working together with others.

Zuhur: This is a process. I don't think overnight we can change people's perceptions, it can only be done slowly

Shaer: Let me put it directly, �..�. Let me give myself as an example. I have never been a member of Hamas all my life. I have never been. I believe in having two states in the historical area of Palestine. I've said it several times. And I believe in forming a state based on the 1967 borders and even so, even so [because these views are moderate as compared to some Palestinians who reject the two-state solution] I've lost my freedom several times. Three times in the last two years, they took me to jail. (He was arrested again after we spoke and remains in jail). First time for five months, second time for two months, third time for two months. And the whole world is watching. And even when we believe such things [supporting a two state solution] Israel behaves this way with us.

When we were working on that Mecca agreement, and we needed to go [to Mecca] and the Israelis prevented me from going. Yes! Why. What is the result? What if you open the border and lets all of the leaders of Hamas out to go and share in the process, but you prevent people like me, and so and so, and Dr. Samir, you [Israel or US pressure on Saudi Arabia} prevent us from going? You know I have been part of a dialogue group which is about the West and the East, to accept democracy, and it is very interesting - a dialogue group between us and Mu'assasat al-Hiwar and I'm working on it, and so when they don't allow me to travel to this meeting, I cannot share the position of this group. So if we are talking about dialogue between the West and Hamas, then we weren't allowed to share this work.

All this boycott - why all of this activity directed against the Palestinians? Now, if we succeed, the whole world would succeed, so why it comes to talk about dialogue and peace and instituting democracy, so why would you insist in interfering in our work, and the whole world insist to keep Hamas from doing this?

Zuhur: The changes in US foreign policy have altered some things for the worse. Right now, in Lebanon, some people are more anti-Palestinian, it is extremely difficult to have a rational discussion about the refugees. I believe this is an aspect of the way that the U.S. has shifted power within Lebanon for its own purposes.

Shaer: Good.

Zuhur: To shift the [Lebanese] political system. One aim was to weaken Hizbullah and Syria, and the side effect is on the issue of the Palestinians as seen in Lebanon. .

Shaer: But now they can influence Syria, if they wish.

Zuhur: Yes, if they wish.

Shaer: But why?

Zuhur: A faction within the US were very interested, about two and a half to three years ago, in trying to change the government in Syria. And then they decided against it.

Shaer: Do you know what it means to change the government in Syria. The government will change when the people want change. Why does the US insist on changing it? Because they want to institute democracy? Now, they control Syria. We are talking about the government controlling the country. It is so they can make peace [with Israel]. When you go to a weak government, it cannot make any decision. Because when you make peace, you have to have the full agreement of all parties �. [unclear sound]

Zuhur: I agree with you. However, when I spoke with an Israeli group (yesterday); their comment was, you know, these Arabs, they are always trying to make these national unity governments. And the Israelis would prefer that they do not [engage in unity govts) so, why do they bother; they can speak to this group, then that other group.

Shaer: Do you mean with each country?

Zuhur: No, and here is the effect. I attempted to say [to Lebanese] "Forget everything [as it is currently arranged]. What if, in discussing the refugee issue, we speak to Palestinians who are in Lebanon and Syria, and see what could happen." What are the possibilities? In your imagination, if something [in the way of a peace settlement] were to happen here. Some negotiation. Would Israelis admit any refugees? I imagine they might let some token number come, 10,000 or so. And they must be offered another country - Canada, or somewhere. Some number must stay in Lebanon. They are married to Lebanese or have other citizenship claims. And everyone I spoke to said, "no."

Shaer: In Lebanon?

Zuhur: Yes, and they have gone back to the old argument regarding the Palestinians: the civil war is their fault .

Shaer: Yes, I understand and to them it [talk of settlement] is wrong.

Zuhur: However, I used to speak to counterparts of these people; and they used to express the idea that a solution [to the refugee problem] must have dignity. Some solution determined by Arab states, or an international body. They were not speaking in the past in the way that they are speaking now. And I find this disturbing as well, and I think it has to do with US interference [that I spoke of earlier].

Now, I will be quiet because you are interviewing me again.

Shaer: To be honest with you. We keep talking about more land. And I am talking about my people. About our ideas, and how we can help, and how we can go for any solution. And we told the whole world how we can persuade the people here. And even Hamas, Fatah, all the parties here to work together to find a solution for this conflict. But believe me, believe me. We are losing our hope. Now, really we feel very sorry that the whole world doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to give any help or to give any hope to the Palestinians. They look at the Palestinian issue as a humanitarian issue.

Zuhur: They do.

Shaer: Believe me, it is not. We are human beings. We need the whole world to help us to solve a political issue, not just a humanitarian one. And look I am in the university, and I have my own money, and I can look after my family. I am still working on this issue, because I would like to see a good future, a better future for my people. I'm not looking for [the outside world] supporting us in salaries, or in wages. While that is necessary, of course, still it is not the end of the issue. We are looking to see if the whole world would like to listen to us, to help us to put an end to this occupation. Believe me if we work to put an end to this occupation, this at the end of the day, will benefit even the Israelis themselves.

And look here, America - I'm not talking about the interests of America, I 'm not talking about petrol, there is no oil here. But believe me, the normal people in the Arab world hate the word, "America," believe me! The Americans should listen carefully to the normal people in this area. That is not because of Arabic propaganda, no, no, that's because American policies have brought in the type of regimes which victimize [the people] - that they have a right to support -- but which have corruption. Look if you are talking about corruption, the first party [person] responsible for corruption in Palestine, is America. They know what and where this corruption is. And when you are taking any issue in Palestine - electricity, water, even when they build a bridge, or an airport, America knows better than me that there is corruption. And they are always supporting the corrupt people.

Look they should support democracy. In that way, they will serve their own issue. [interest] They help themselves. They will change the people to accept the way of American thinking.

Zuhur: Then, I think, the Americans need to hear more about the connection - either between Islam and democracy, or between the Palestinians and democracy, since they don't understand this.

Shaer: We [Hamas] are supporting democracy one hundred per cent. We are not going to force people to do certain things, or prevent them from doing certain things. We are looking for an Islamic state. We are not a religious party or group. We are normal. We are Muslim; we cannot deny that, and we are proud of that. We are looking for a better future. To share with others, work with others, to think with others, to accept each other! By others, I mean America, and any other country in the world.

We cannot live alone. We don't want to live alone. [They say that] we have built our own system so that we will conquer the whole world. No, no, no, no! We are working to put an end to this occupation.

I know why they [Americans] hate us sometimes; and they do not wish to engage in or reject having talks with us sometimes. I mean [with] any Palestinian, believe me. Why? Because the Israelis do not want the Americans to speak to us. All those who give this advice - to not speak to us - most of them are Israelis, or they are victims of the Israeli viewpoint in a way. Americans should listen carefully, intently, for their own interests, and also for our interests. (Laughing) We are not comparing ourselves with America, a huge country! But we are human! And we prefer to be free.

I visited America for a few weeks in 1998. And I visited eight states, Washington, New York and other cities, and I read all the time in Washington DC about democracy and freedom. I liked it very much! So why don't we see these concepts here? Why don't democracy and freedom resonate in America's policies here?

Zuhur: Those who oppose dialogue [with you] obtained a lot of ammunition through 9/11.

Shaer: You know, Americans should know that those people who were involved with the events of 9/11, first of all, are not Palestinian. Secondly, they are very FAR in their ideology from any Palestinian group, or partisan way of thinking. They should know that HAMAS, even [Islamic] Jihad, insist, insist that their only enemy is the occupation!

Zuhur: I went to a Christian school in the United States to speak about 9/11 and Iraq. The very shy students came to me to ask questions individually. A girl, already 17 years old and in the 12th grade - the last grade of high school - said, "I just want to know, was it Saddam Husayn who sent the planes to blow up the Twin Towers?"

Americans, ordinary Americans cannot separate issues in the Middle East.

Shaer: And you think we can do that [for Americans}?

Zuhur: And if I ask my college students to draw in lines as borders between Israel, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories, or other countries in the Middle East on an open map, they cannot do it! They lack geographical and historical knowledge �

Shaer: No, no. I understand.

Zuhur: So when they hear an American speaking - not an Israeli - who says "Islam is not the enemy" but then goes on to say "Islamists are the enemy" �

Shaer: What is the meaning of Islamist?

Zuhur: Islamist in this case is being used as a substitute for the earlier term, "fundamentalist."

Shaer: Now, "Islamist" when they use it in a bad way, yes, it is a problem. But "Islamist" can be a very good term in that it suggests those who are dealing with Islam.

Zuhur: Yes, but now, there is a limited knowledge of Islamism. We see discussions about the past, not a lot of knowledge - just enough to manipulate and it becomes very easy to

Shaer: I want to tell you that this is a very difficult subject. Because what we have, a nation, the American people after all, who cannot follow Islam [and the events in the Muslim world] they can do nothing [they cannot affect the direction of politics].

So in 1998, in the cultural section of the American Embassy there was a program concerning U.S. foreign policy in the Muslim world ever since 1945. It concerned democratization and the history of policy. And it was reported in New York, in the New York Times, and posted on the computer, and all the Palestinian journalists were reporting on it.

And then it had information about [charges of terrorism directed against Hamas] and the Mossad, which as is know is the Israeli arm of intelligence - and this resulted in the assassination of leadership, and affected some 500 members of Hamas, and perhaps 100,000 individuals.

And America, and this faker (actor) and this charade, and here you have the Palestinians indicted, and their president. And there you have the pro-Israeli readers of the New York Times. Which indicts the presidency of the other group. And where else would you have a story like this? In Tehran?

Masaad Abu Toameh: That's a conspiracy theory.

Zuhur: But it might be true.

Toameh: I'm not saying that's not true, I'm just saying that everything here [in Israel/Palestine] is based on that conspiracy theory, because of the suspicion, because of the destructive nature of the information, because of the reported arms links with Iran. You, know what's his name �.?

Shaer: Did you read [Emerson]____'s story ? He's a very bad guy. He is against Palestinian interests. He shared in assassinating five Palestinian leaders of Hamas here. He got the Israelis to kill them. He's that bad a person.

Zuhur: So why can't you get the information about him to The New York Times?

Shaer: You are right. But it is the New York Times that is responsible for this. They have this responsibility.

Once you have read that big story, don't you think that, in general, that is their view?

Zuhur: You can insist on a correction. I want to shift subjects for a minute. What is your way forward? What will you do?

Shaer: I will continue to work against the occupation. And try to accomplish something good, and struggle. And in trying to bring Fatah and Hamas together, we will go back again to Hamas to try to stop the fighting here. And this might not bring about anything. So, I see that we might not succeed to bring this together, in these two or three months But I hope, I hope we can bring about unity again, to speak in one voice, to bring about a coalition again. And I hope, in time, this will work.

And I hope the Americans will be able to read between the lines

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